Curse

(Datura) · Aug 04, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

In brief:
Nature Rituals suck in PvE because they're mostly focused around condition-spreading, degen, damage conversion, heal reduction, +health, and ENERGY DENIAL. These are bad because most conditions suck, are already easily spreadable, or wound be devastating if they got on your backline. Degen is just terrible. Damage is converted to elemental, which sucks. Heals are used by humans more than mobs. +Health just makes fights slower. Energy denial in PvE is counterproductive, useless vs. mobs, and slow.

Nature Rituals suck in PvP because they are the epitome of Build Wars.

Traps suck in PvE because they're stackable, so they have to suck.

Traps suck in PvP because they're slow, easily interruptible, and have long recharges. However, they're okay in HA because HA maps suck.
---
Faster cast times would only help out rituals like Winnowing and FW. The rest are too broken to be helped out by number reduction.

Faster cast times wouldn't help traps at all. Dust Trap and Smoke Trap might see use with short cast times, but they require investment in a shitty attribute and still have long recharges. Also, Smoke is elite and Dust costs lots o' energy.
---
In a way, I'm against making rituals only affect one side, since the possibility of backfiring adds a layer of strategy. However, it really only causes build wars situations, so I'm kind of for it at the same time. An alternate strategy could be just making rituals less build wars-y. Nature's Renewal, for example, is one of the most build wars skills in the game. While it can be killed, its effect completely eliminates certain styles of play and a team with NR can avoid its downsides with the correct builds. Winnowing, on the other hand, is not a build wars skill (though its effect is still too minor to be good, IMO). It might give one side an advantage, but it doesn't destroy certain teams.

I would love to see traps more like their GW2 counterparts (more powerful, but non-stackable).
---
Rant:
And rangers do need a buff (though realistically, they probably won't ever get one). In fact, they need a buff more than any other PvE profession. The only things they're optimal in are useless in PvE. Pretty much all of the super-para-fans in the aforementioned thread are mildly retarded; half of them think paras should have awesome single-target damage, AoE options, awesome party healing, and awesome party defense. Hell, there were even some super-mesmer-fans who were saying mesmers should have nuking capabilities a while ago. Dervs aren't even underpowered, W/Ds and A/Ds are just overpowered. IMO, all eles need is an intensity buff, but Anet disagrees apparently.

Paras have Imbagon. I know it might get boring, but one overpowered build is better than nothing. Eles have ER. It doesn't fit their role and doesn't work in some areas, but that's also better than nothing. They also have blindspam and wards, which are actually pretty good (better than anything rangers have). Dervs have nothing optimal, but that could be easily solved with an AoHM change. Their dps is still better than rangers in almost all situations. Rangers have spike builds (that's it), which have significantly less synergy with party buffs and have significantly lower dps than melees unless you're in an area with shittons of snares and really spread-out mobs. Anyone who thinks rangers don't need a buff either doesn't play ranger or gets carried by their heroes and just thinks they're doing something effective.
/catchbreath

Nice use of gw knowledge and common sense sir. Couldn't agree with you more.

Voodoo Rage · Aug 04, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Anyone who thinks rangers don't need a buff either doesn't play ranger or gets carried by their heroes and just thinks they're doing something effective.

/catchbreath

So true. My first character was a ranger and I did fine with her, even vanquished several areas. My build: TOUCH RANGER. lol

Hero synergy goes a long way!

Skyy High · Aug 04, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I'll also /agree with most of what Ugh said, except for the bit at the bottom about rangers not having any useful builds. Splinter-barrage does better AoE damage than anything eles can dish out, and BHA is still the best daze skill in the game for bosses. Asuran scan + I Am the Strongest + RtW + 33% IAS with Sundering, Penetrating, and Prepared Shot does pretty good sustainable single-target damage (~100 damage per shot in HM) at flatbow range.

*Darcy* · Aug 04, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Nevertheless, I would not oppose a modest damage increase, it just didn't factor into the problems I saw with the skill type.

Which would make the Echovald forest more difficult with the Wardens and their love of traps.

chuckles79 · Aug 04, 2010, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Rangers need a buff, but it's just incorrect to say they are useless or have no useful builds.
The danger with rangers is too many people try to do too many things.
How many professions can bring AOE, two interrupts, a blocking stance, EoE, a great self heal, a great self-condition removal, and a rez?
My 60 yo father, who can't remember what he ate for breakfast the day before, has 20 maxxed titles including VQ'ing everything; all with a ranger.
His elite has been Melandru's Shot for the last 3 years (before the buff as well as after).

The only legit complaint about Rangers is that they are not welcome in UW and DoA SCs or are meta in either area.
That puts them roughly on par with the paragon. While paras have the overpowered imbagon build, they have very few usuable variations on that build and don't have the pvp abilties of rangers.

Morphy · Aug 04, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Rangers need a buff, but it's just incorrect to say they are useless or have no useful builds.

That depends on what you call useful.

Quote:

The danger with rangers is too many people try to do too many things.
How many professions can bring AOE, two interrupts, a blocking stance, EoE, a great self heal, a great self-condition removal, and a rez?

No other, which is why Rangers are strong in PvP, where versatility is a great strength. In PvE, however, all that matters is how fast you can do stuff as ANYTHING works there. You want to drop stuff fast so you need big yellow numbers. EoE and the AoE are the only truly useful skills for this purpose and guess what? Ritualists have access to those as well as access to mass spirit summoning and the ability to move these spirits around the map.

Quote:

My 60 yo father, who can't remember what he ate for breakfast the day before, has 20 maxxed titles including VQ'ing everything; all with a ranger.
His elite has been Melandru's Shot for the last 3 years (before the buff as well as after).

As I mentioned before, anything works. If your goal is to complete PvE without time being much of a concern, you don't need a specific build. That makes this point moot.

Quote:

The only legit complaint about Rangers is that they are not welcome in UW and DoA SCs or are meta in either area.

Ranger/Ritualist and Ritualist/Ranger are mostly interchangable, much the same as A/W and W/A performing the 100b role. Problem is, most people will not consider this truly a Ranger role and I can't say I disagree with them. Most Traps and Nature Rituals just aren't fitted for the modern "rush" style of play, which either means the rush play needs to be adressed or the Traps/NRs. I'm personally in favor of the first option.

Quote:

That puts them roughly on par with the paragon. While paras have the overpowered imbagon build, they have very few usuable variations on that build and don't have the pvp abilties of rangers.

Paragons are kind of gay and have never seen balanced use in PvP, Rangers are strong in PvP but outdated in PvE. I think that sums it up nicely.

chuckles79 · Aug 04, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

I won't tell you where to go with your paragon comment Morphy, but it seems like you are not as much saying that rangers aren't good in PvE as much as you are saying that they aren't perceived as good.
If I'm going with a team of physicals or overall balance of casters and physicals, I always want a ranger.
but that's me.

Xiaquin · Aug 04, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

Which would make the Echovald forest more difficult with the Wardens and their love of traps.

I agree there is danger, and I didn't originally suggest more damage with them (also let's not forget the Factions urban area and some of the Crystal Desert that see trap love). But if they are fixed and end up tacking on more damage, I'm not going to cry foul, at least I can get revenge with traps of my own.

Jk Arrow · Aug 05, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Summon Spirits also has a huge affect on why PvE spirit rits are so successful. The ability to tow your spirits along with the team and put them in range as needed makes the recharge time and cast time largely unimportant. Other than needing to recast in battle of course.

Rangers don't have a skill of their own for this use so are forced to go /rit if they want that ability. Seems sort of odd to me.

jazilla · Aug 05, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

My 60 yo father, who can't remember what he ate for breakfast the day before, has 20 maxxed titles including VQ'ing everything; all with a ranger. His elite has been Melandru's Shot for the last 3 years (before the buff as well as after).

You win the best quote of the month club's prize!

Xiaquin · Aug 05, 2010, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk Arrow

Rangers don't have a skill of their own for this use so are forced to go /rit if they want that ability. Seems sort of odd to me.

I believe nature rituals began affecting an entire explorable area, so you wouldn't have needed a tow skill. Cut the recharges and cast times in half, and you won't need to tow them, really. NRs aren't up there on the priority list of things to kill, rits need to constantly move theirs around in battle, if not getting out of harm's way, adjusting fire or healing them.

Ka Tet · Aug 05, 2010, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I believe nature rituals began affecting an entire explorable area, so you wouldn't have needed a tow skill.

Unless you're suggesting that they change it to that, this is incorrect.

Morphy · Aug 05, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I won't tell you where to go with your paragon comment Morphy, but it seems like you are not as much saying that rangers aren't good in PvE as much as you are saying that they aren't perceived as good.

No, what I'm saying is that a lot of what a Ranger does isn't good in PvE because it's either too slow to fit in with what does work (Traps, NRs) or is outright not useful (nobody needs interrupts as there are no specific skills that absolutely NEED to be shut down, for example). What makes something good in PvE is not what works but what's best and Rangers quite frankly aren't.

Skyy High · Aug 05, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Unless you're suggesting that they change it to that, this is incorrect.

No, he's right, it was just changed to the current system back in beta.

@Morphy...so, is splinter barrage too slow or outright not useful?

Morphy · Aug 05, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

@Morphy...so, is splinter barrage too slow or outright not useful?

Zzzz, I said this before, a role that can be easily played by a Ritualist and 100b is pretty much >>>>>>>> it anyway. It's even possible to use Volley with a Signet of Spirits build.

Quaker · Aug 05, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Everyone has there own approach to playing GW.
There are those, like me, who like to relax and have fun and enjoy the journey, so to speak. This is what you might call the RPG approach.
And then there are those for whom GW is a game to be "beaten", and beaten as fast as possible. This is what you might call the console gamer FPS approach.
And, of course, there is everything in between as well.

The RPG'er will go fishing with a rod & reel, and sit on the dock quietly relaxing, not really caring if he catches anything or not. The FPS'ers will go fishing by throwing dynamite in the water. The RPG'er will say "what's your rush, relax" - the FPS'er will say that using a rod and reel is not an "optimal" or "useful" build.

Obviously, this forum thread is "by FPS, for FPS".

Ka Tet · Aug 05, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

No, he's right, it was just changed to the current system back in beta.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit#Spirit_Range

MisterB · Aug 05, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit#Spirit_Range

I see your link and raise you two. Current nature ritual mechanics are irrelevant to what their effect was prior to release.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unnat..._version%29vvv - see notes

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unnatural_Signet - see trivia

Ka Tet · Aug 05, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

I see your link and raise you two. Current nature ritual mechanics are irrelevant to what their effect was prior to release.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unnat..._version%29vvv - see notes

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unnatural_Signet - see trivia

Unless of course we're talking about current mechanics and not historic renditions.

Xiaquin · Aug 05, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I was just talking about originally-concepted design. I wasn't around for the ancient times so I don't know when the "cut-off" was for adding new skills, but even at release time, I doubt there was any reason to conceive of a way to quickly move the NRs around with you.